@Ethan Karnopp

I am truly a moderate Ethan. I do believe that two parties should be able to reach “a meeting of the minds” and establish expectations for the product and pay they expect to receive from each other.

However, I’ve had too many roofing contractors come and fix the same leak to not know that a contract doesn’t protect you when the company folds the next day. Enter the BBB or Angie’s List. (or umbrella organization)

I don’t believe this game designer took advantage of anyone. He asked artists the price for their work. They told him. He paid them. The two parties engaged in the transaction should decide if it is equitable. I cannot see the harm in any of this.

I agree that the article was abrasive and could have used some serious editing. But then again, the audience was other game designers. Other teenage game designers. Me – I’m cutting the kid some slack. He’s pumped up because he’s had some success, but most reasonable people know that long term success is a very, very long road.

It is also my philosophy to try really hard not to repeat mistakes. I do look for the silver lining. I do want all people to succeed. I don’t want artists to starve, but I also don’t want game designers to starve.

Other people have said it better: a working relationship based upon trust and respect is the very best thing.

But nothing trumps an agreement between two people. Even if everyone else in the world think that it’s crazy.

@Chris Haigood

I’m not upset that there are artists of my caliber that do the work cheaper- frankly there isn’t an artist I have ever seen of my caliber or higher that works for less than I do to my knowledge. The problem is that these kids are destroying the market. Let me be clear: I don’t want this job- not a chance in hell would I take it, but if enough people undercut they drive down my rates because the market views them as too high.

@Ethan Karnopp

Isn’t this the nucleus of why people are angry?

@YemMaybe there is a miscommunication here, I don’t believe I mentioned any link between those.

Chris Haigood :
The people who got offended were the ones looking to make top dollar and royalties and can’t stand the fact there are other artists who will do the same quality of work cheaper.

I’m sure there are those living in lesser developed countries that would do your work for a much lower amount. Does that make it acceptable to hire them?

@xdragon10: Just to address some of your points.
I can see both sides of the coin here, as a developer, creating games or any other piece of software for a living, is what earns you your bread and butter, you take the risk of investing time and money into something, that even after all your research, you won’t know will be popular and make you a profit let alone a substantial one. You don’t have the cash or resources to pay a ‘professional’ artist, so you do the intelligent thing, you give some aspiring artists on sites like dA the opportunity to gain work experience that will benefit them in the long run.

But for all your valid points, you surely must appreciate how burned an artist might feel, if you kept them in the dark, hired them to work on something, they charged you $100 once-off like they might any of their regulars, then it turns out you earned $10,000 in the sale of the games you created. If I was that artist, I would certainly feel that I’d deserve a share of those profits myself, considering that without me, or someone like me, you wouldn’t have earned them either.

The hypocrisy in your viewpoint, vis-a-vis, Market Economics, is that software is an artform in itself and many software companies treat developers the same way you suggest developers go about hiring artists. A great example would be Valve’s two-tier licensing of their Source engine technology, if you use it for non-commercial purposes vs using it with the intent of producing a commercial product.

Supposing the points you make regarding hiring an artist were applied to hiring a software developer. While I cannot speak for you, I would imagine if you knew I was going to be hiring you to produce software I wanted to sell commercially, and I required that you gave up all copyright of the code, to me, and accept a once-off payment for the job, paid on job completion. You would either charge as much as a ‘professional’ or want a cut of the sales, after all, it’s your hard work that’s the reason I’m going to be making any money at all.

Your points, although they’re not necessarily worded the best, are the truth of how business works, how the economy works, and are quite valid when applied in either situation. It might not be ‘nice’ it certainly isn’t ‘honourable’ when you keep someone in the dark so they don’t charge you more because they might feel entitled to it, exploitation of the ignorant as it were, but that’s life and that’s business.

I just hope you accept, that you will be seen to be equally hypocritical, because to be quite frank, if you were in the position of a professional artist, you would do the same thing in charging as much as you can get away with, just like any of the rest of us.

@Anon

Actually, yes. In almost all of these cases, it is good money FOR THEM. The professional artist wouldn’t take this work at his price because it won’t support their lifestyle, and won’t be in line with their standard earnings. A student who wants some extra beer money, or to pay down a debt, or to make some money for whatever might be far more interested.

Someone in an economy with a significantly lower cost of living or a currency which is valued very poorly against USD might be extremely interested, since the sum of money they are being paid is very good /for them/.

There is no exploitation, no poor working conditions, none of the negative associations with ‘foreign’ cheap labour.

@Anon

If the people have no job prospects whatsoever in those underdeveloped countries, shouldn’t we, in fact, hire them rather than allow them to starve?

What is the moral imperative here? A decline in one person’s standard so that another’s may rise?

It’s what this entire country is facing right now.

@Kathryn

Short term, everyone wins. Here is where the problem is: everything is relative. Everyone is losing, in reality. The artists are getting paid, yes, but they are getting paid for low rates under poor conditions, they yield insubstantial fruit for their efforts. He receives poor art- I’ve seen his games, they aren’t stunning, and I do believe his products would have been more successful if he didn’t overlook this. As more developers of this nature arise in the market, more cheap artists will be sought, and as this concept of cheap labor is spread, the higher tier of artists rates will plumet. Later these artists who started off by producing such cheap assets enter the industry proper, unbeknownst to them they have been undercutting themselves for years and will now have a harder time with their career. The games are now introduced to the market- and the entire market is marginally lowered in quality because of this. Of course it’s not a detrimental impact, but power is in numbers, and if people such as him continues to advocate practices such as this, quality of games, and their respective priority in the market are exponentially reduced. Every party is at a loss in the end.

Well thanks for the article. This will show these so-called “amateur” artists how they are being cheated and selling themselves short. You guys obviously have no idea how difficult it can be to be creative sometimes. Sometimes us artists can go a year or longer dealing with creativity blocks. You think its simple. And all your advertising that makes you so much money, all that art, all the video games, magazines, cd covers, movies, etc… all that art is OURS. No matter how much you pay. WE are the ones that created that from nothing. So all our work is, in fact, priceless. Remember that the next time you try to steal from us.

@Ethan Karnopp
Oh no, a market is working like a market.

Products go three ways, basically. They can be cheap, like the ones this developer is looking for. They can be /very/ good, like the ones I imagine most of the professional artists are creating. Or, they can have some ‘value added’ gimmick. ‘Fair Trade’ coffee or sugar or whatever is an example of this, though I’m sure someone more clever than I could come up with a better example.

Just.. This is how markets work. There are low and high ends. I’m really not sure what else to say.

@Brinley
Hi Brinley –

Can you articulate what part of /this article/ bothers you rather than attacking developers or ‘the system’?

@Yem

A market is acting like a market, yes, but if you would like to keep the market afloat you should refrain from shitting in your own backyard before you collapse your own market.

@Ethan Karnopp

Well said, Ethan. A rising tide lifts all ships. It’s an excellent proposal. Pay a little more for better art and see profits rise due to higher sales.

And you have cut to the bone to explain the fear driving the hatred in so many of the negative comments which have appeared.

So what to do about it?

Here is where frustration compounds the fear. Here is where our deepest values affect our reaction. Here is where our experience watching manufacturing die in our own country is warning us to beware

How much interference should be tolerated in the marketplace? Should companies (or game designers) be allowed to pursue the cheapest labor in pursuit of the maximization of their profits, regardless of the consequences to people damaged by this action?

Should we all get together and force game designers to hire better graphics artists, even if they don’t have the budget for it?

A thrown together article written by a teenager has become the most important question in the art community today.

For me, as hard as it is to say it, (my husband has been outsourced) I have to believe in the flexibility the market allows between buyer and seller. If we start dictating who should do what and how, we will surely kill the free exchange of ideas and money between people.

There has to be an economic incentive to spend more an an artist and you have given it, beautifully. But what if someone wants to keep creating less beautiful work? Then what?

@Kathryn

The best and easiest solution to this is advice that my mentor gave to me: Don’t start working until you can produce work worth charging for, til then, learn to master your craft. Maybe it’s pie in the sky, but it’s the best I’ve got.

@Ethan Karnopp

I like pies in the skies.

@Ethan Karnopp
@Kathryn

It is competition. Markets have not collapsed because they are over competitive. They force people to create niches, and to evolve to remain competitive.

For the most part, the people doing work ‘on the cheap’ are not the people who are capable of producing the high quality professional product. And really, the people at the top end should not have to make sacrifices to remain competitive – the people who want a good product will still pay top dollar for it, and the people who aren’t willing to wouldn’t have paid for it even if the cheap labour wasn’t plentiful.

Produce a high quality product and people will pay for it. Build relationships, as people have told the developers to do, and you will have work. If you are producing a high quality or innovative product, the cheap bottom-end labour should not threaten your well being.

@Yem

I come from a town in which the economy was devastated in the 70s when the paper mills refused to pay the unions a proper wage. As a result the unions went on strike, and the company hired scab employees at scab wages. Later on, without the protection of the unions, the scabs were all laid off to outsource overseas. Competition isn’t necessarily always beneficial.

I have no problem with low budget games. There are plenty out there who I respect and admire, but there is a way to treat your team properly, and it will do well for you in the end. It’s not karma, it’s cause and effect.

@Yem

Dude,

Were you my economics professor?

Gotta go. It’s been nice learning from everyone. I hope lots of youngsters have paid close attention because this truly has been a priceless course on business art.

I’m sorry for trying to match mean for mean. That wasn’t cool.

Please ask your colleges or alma maters to add business courses in their art departments.

Regards,
Kathryn

@Yem
All of what you’ve described here seems perfectly acceptable to you?

Is it actually good money for them or are they undercutting themselves as much as possible to appear “competitive” because they’re desperate for work and think that doing such jobs will actually gain them exposure?

What you’ve described is exactly why people are worried about outsourcing jobs and immigrant labor. People like that live in such poor conditions that small amounts of money seem huge to them, so they’ll happily work for pennies.
Immigrant labor is an over-exaggerated comparison, but the concept remains the same. That seems very much like exploitation to me, perhaps it doesn’t from your perspective.

It seems like the problem comes from how difficult it is to put a price on creativity and art. Artists have priced themselves to be so competitive with hopes of being noticed and getting a respectable job, that the whole freelance art community has been driven into the ground financially and very low pay is practically expected now. I think artists tend to believe that they need to price themselves much cheaper than they actually have to if they want any hope for the future. This opportunity allows people like the author to take advantage of the situation and their ignorance of what the professional commercial art industry is actually like.

The problem isn’t the author specifically, but all of those that share his mentality.

Thank you for writing this article, whether you were being serious or not [I hope not]. It makes me happy to see how many disapproving comments were written in response. Because this means that in this world there’s a lot of people who value honesty and aren’t afraid to openly condemn wrongdoings. It helps one keep their faith in humanity. So thanks.

I don’t see the big deal. You’re an amateur who prefers to work with amateurs, there’s no shame in that. OK, so you’re boastful, belittling, unethical, negative and toweringly ignorant but who cares! If you can’t be these things on the internet, where can you be? As long as you’re up-front with your hobbyist helpers and don’t try to promise more pocket money than you have in your piggy bank what’s the harm? They earn a few quid to spend on a new Anime poster and you get a selection of suspicious graphics. Everyone’s happy!

I can completely understand trying to save a buck when developing these games. Times are hard right now and everyone, I think, is struggling. And I can understand hiring artists from sites like the ones mentioned. There are a lot of good ones out there. However, here is how I see it.

We all know you can go out there and find some kid who is good at painting trees, or cute little characters, or what ever. The chances are is that is ALL they are good at. As YOUNG artists, unstudied, uneducated and no real investment (yet) in their profession, how reliable are they really? I have seen few who can step outside their comfort zone and succeed. In this world overflowing with paint by number styles like Anime, Manga, Nick Jr…ect, young artist are increasingly backing their skills into a corner. I have news for you young artist out there. If you like Manga, Anime….good luck finding steady work in the US. The good news is that Asia has plenty of artistic sweat shops for you to draw that stuff all day long.

Seasoned artists have something more. Experience. Not just in art, but in life. We have studied more, experienced more, felt more, practiced our trade for thousands of more hours. We are more versatile to say the least. I myself, have a set rate, and even as a broke college student, I stick to my rate. If someone does not want to pay it….well they can hire one of their cheap artists.

It sounds like a lot of people are scared by this. I for one am happy. While the young inexperienced artists are being hired for little jobs like this and getting screwed, the bigger fish are still available for us more experienced bunch.

I myself, have a set rate, and even as a broke college student, I stick to my rate. If someone does not want to pay it….well they can hire one of their cheap artists.

@Ethan Karnopp
Beneficial to a factory town and beneficial to ‘the market’ are not the same thing, regrettably. In theory, outsourcing the lowest end of the manufacturing chain should allow them to drop the price of manufactured products, making it a win for everybody. It should also, in theory, open up higher level manufacturing, or more specialized jobs in the US.

Factory towns were an unfortunate byproduct of the past, and still are – see : the motor industry.

@Anon
And the solution really is producing a quality product, one that cannot be mass produced or easily copied by cheap labour. The reality is that the most ‘mechanical’ jobs will be moved to places where cheap labour is plentiful.

This is, really, why more and more people in the ‘first world’ are getting college or university degrees. If you can be replaced by unskilled labour or a machine, ultimately it is better for ‘the market’ if you are, as it will lower costs for everyone.

@yem

This whole article is a tutorial on how to swindle inexperienced artists. Please don’t accuse me for ‘attacking “the system”‘. This system is attacking artists and blatantly suggesting that companies seek out those who are desperate for whatever money they can get, and abuse their time and hard work. Well if that’s the case, then likewise, artists should produce and sell work whether or not its good. I mean, how would companies react if every artist they went to, amateur or professional, only produced pencil sketches for their logos, advertisements, etc… ? Why should we give our best when customers won’t pay for the best. Its shameful.

As one of those lower paid artists from sites such as Deviantart I would like to thank you for posting this article.

You have given all of us unprofessionals immense insight into what to do and what not to do when dealing with you and other game designers looking to score cheap work.

1. When asked for your pricing, think about the amount of work they are asking you to put into it. Research and ask about them, their project; try to stay out of the dark secretly. Think of your pricing again: double or triple it without fear. THEY are coming to YOU because they cannot afford a professional. As an unprofessional you dont rely on this work to cover your bills and all of your living expenses so if they pass you up based on price, oh well. Their loss. Your work is apparently of better quality so treat it like it is.

2. Ask for half payment (or partial) up front. Demanding all is unreasonable as is not receiving any to get started.

3. Timelines: if you find that you cannot finish the work given their strict timelines, let them know. You work to live, not live to work and if your counsin’s wedding is coming up and means you wont make a project work date and they deduct pay, cut them loose. After all, you are NOT a professional artist, they know this so you can play by all the wrong rules. YOU ARE NOT A PROFESSIONAL TO THEM SO DONT ACT LIKE ONE!

=] Anyway, thanks for letting us in on how you bastards think and treat us. Treat others the way you want to be treated is the rule so guarantee you have set in motion something that will change the attitude of the unprofessionals everywhere. We owe you so much. Hopefully these words of gratitude are enough because as you are aware, we arent paid very much so no monetary contributions in your name can be made.

Sincerely,

Another Deviantart Artist

I’m over this article. As I said, I’m glad that it was written because it has opened my eyes (and I’m sure many other artists’, to the cruel world of ‘business’.

Good luck to all of you. Artists and businesses.

@Yem
I have a direct refute but I’m done with this argument. To summarize, I am a proud capitalist and an advocate of entrepreneurship, regulation is a solution but that hinders the markets freedom and should be a last resort in my opinion, so instead I propose ethics. You aren’t wrong by saying that this is a new tier of the industry and that the two parties currently involved are both befitting short term. They have every right to do what they are doing, but in the long run, and if this sort of mentality spreads, it will have a very negative impact on the entire industry. I’d love to continue discussing this but I have work to do, and I really hope that if you have ANY sort of involvement within the videogame industry, you swallow your pride and realize the potential hazard of the situation at hand.

I sent this email to the site’s admin. I’m reposting here in its entirety.

“I read your article on Kaitol.com about finding artists, and I’ve also read its follow up. You’re really in over your head on this one. Let’s lay a few things out…

I understand that you can’t afford to pay a reasonable amount of money for art. You state on your site that you’ve only made about $45,000 last year from your efforts, and while I applaud that you’ve been able to make profit on your dream, it’s realistically less than a quality control department worker makes at an established gaming company. Just because you can’t afford decent art doesn’t mean that you should actively encourage others to exploit contractors. This practice makes you a bottom feeder. This may sound harsh, but it’s reality and if you aspire to someday become a responsible and respected business owner within the game industry you will need to begin to appreciate the value of your assets. Talented artists can sell games, just look at the iconic character designs of Mario, Sonic, Mega-Man, and others. Game art is an integral part of both the experience AND the business. If you have poor art you will have an uphill battle licensing your characters to other markets (i.e. merchandise, television, etc). This also holds true for having antagonistic relationships with your artists. You’ll have a difficult time finding backers and partners if your artist is willing to sue you for character ownership rights. Your art IS your studio’s identity and your artists ARE your partners in crafting that identity. You should pay them accordingly upfront so that you avoid pitfalls later. If you come across a talent that you feel is good enough to represent YOUR ideas in YOUR product you owe it to yourself to make that relationship as strong as possible. If you continue your exploitative stance on artists who have helped your studio build its brand you will quickly come to your senses when they start working for larger studios and tell stories about their “shit jobs” that got them where they want to be in life. Do you want your business to be a weigh-station for developing talent to “pay their dues” at? Do you want to be not a video game brand, but a “my first job horror story” for talent that spreads out into the industry? Think about that long and hard.

Many of my friends and family work in video games. My own company is branching out to interactive as well. At the level you are at in your career it’s important for you to appreciate you’re standing at a crossroad. Even giving your talent as little as 2% of the net as a royalty is a start. You should be humble and thankful that you’ve found good people who are even willing to talk to you for the amount you’re paying. Let them know you appreciate it. You need them more than they need you. If they were charging you a rate that was standard in the industry (between $500 – $1000 per asset) you’d never be able to realize your own dream of starting a profitable game studio. The question to you is if you want to take your business up or down; it all hinges on the reputation you cultivate for yourself. “

@Yem
True. Anime comes to my mind given your description; an easily-reproducible art style that allows for the artists to be expendable. It’s what is in demand from those studios though for that same reason.
It’s just a sad situation overall.

I still don’t see how the author’s mentality can be morally justified. Perhaps it’s just an issue of perspective on the matter.

For the benefit of people with no moral compass, I went through this article and picked out the most insulting parts.

“These guys aren’t used to making a lot of money for their work so they will be more appreciative of the chance even if they are being payed slightly less than what professionals are payed.”

Haughty and self-important. It sounds like he’s saying we should feel HONORED to have the chance to work for peanuts for him.

“Ask THEM what they are willing to charge for the project. This usually causes people to give offers that are lower than what you normally pay, and will make them happy.”

Valid… but slimy. You should know how much you’re willing to pay when you hire somebody for a project.

“Artists who have done a lot of game design work are also bad for a similar reason, they know how much flash games can earn so they expect a decent percentage of the profit.”

Well no SHIT someone who did the work is going to expect fair pay for it!

“Make it clear to whomever you hire that they will not be payed until ALL the work is completed, unless it is completed by a predefined date, and unless it matches or exceeds expectations.”

Of all the things in this article, even if you destroy all of my other points (and I don’t give a shit how much you want to look like a hardass businessman, it won’t change how the rest of us feel) this is the absolute worst out of all of them. This puts the buyer in the position to really screw over the artist. This is not an acceptable practice. This makes it easy for you to walk out on the artist.

“Only paying for the finished work encourages the artist to finish their job faster, if you pay up front the artist has no motivation to finish quickly.”

Maybe in your little world without ethics or a conscience, but this isn’t true of everyone. If someone actually paid me in full up front, I’d actually be pretty stressed and want to get the work done faster. Otherwise it looks like I’m walking off without doing the work. Goes both ways, huh?

If I see no money up front, I’m nervous that, as said above, you will run off without paying.

“If an artist knows how much their artwork will increase the value of the game they will then feel they deserve that amount of money.”

NO. FUCKING. SHIT. People want fair pay for the amount of work they’ve done? WOW. WHO KNEW?

Tell me, what if that artist comes back to see how the project turns out, and sees you sitting on a pile of money when they only got a few bucks out of it? Do you think they’ll feel good about it? Do you think they’ll want to work with you again? Making allies in the art world will get you farther than one-night stands.

“Give strict dates about when you need the art done (even if you don’t) and give consequences by deduction in pay if the art is not completed by the day.”

Docking pay for imaginary deadlines?

No, I think I’ll take the “die in a fire” route with this one.

Ethan Karnopp :
@Kathryn
The best and easiest solution to this is advice that my mentor gave to me: Don’t start working until you can produce work worth charging for, til then, learn to master your craft. Maybe it’s pie in the sky, but it’s the best I’ve got.

I disagree entirely for reasons I’ll get to in a moment.

I was one of the fortunate people who went to design school, and one of the even fewer and significantly more fortunate of those who learned how to price myself well while I was there.
Instead of ripping this article another rectum as others have done, I’ll instead give pricing pointers to any novice illustrator or designer stumbling across this article.

What I learned is this: Before you decide what to charge for a project, it is imperative to know what the budget for the project is before hand. This will require open and honest communication on both the part of your client as well as yourself as an artist. If they are unwilling to tell you what they can or cannot afford, you can be given no guarantee that they will actually pay you. It’s a rather bleak way of looking at it, but it’s depressingly true in a lot of cases.

After you find out how much your client can afford, it’s a good idea to make a quote of how much you expect to be paid. Quotes should always run in general ballparks (because the hours you work on a project may fluctuate, so be sure to adjust for that,) but make sure the quote is the amount you expect to be paid for the number of hours you expect to work for the project.

Now, here’s where I disagree with what Ethan Karnopp said: if you truly feel like your work isn’t the greatest work to be paid for, but still find that you (just like everyone else) need to pay the bills and eat, charge the federal minimum wage. This is completely fair and also completely legal; it isn’t asking too much to ask for a price that still falls well below the poverty line, so don’t let anyone try to tell you that it’s too high an asking price. If you feel that your skills are worth more than the federal minimum wage, than charge more.

From there, I would suggest breaking up your creative process into different chunks (like recording how much time you take for conceptualization, research, production, and administrative tasks,) and price them differently in order of importance. Your conceptualization is the most important thing that an illustrator or designer has to offer, so the price per hour for that should be the highest. Production should be the second highest, because drawing takes time and skill. Research and administrative tasks should be the lowest because it’s something that most people can do.

Include this pricing, along with predictions of how long the project will take, in your price quote. Be sure to leave wiggle room for both time and expected costs, because you never know what may or may not come up. From there, get a written contract with all of this stated and have it signed by not only you, but your client. Keep it on record.

For the smaller jobs that take less time, I would second the suggestion of getting half of your quote after a sketch or something similar is produced and getting the rest upon completion, but be sure that you record your hours and get paid by them.

@College Grad

Thanks for the advice, Grad. It’s a hell of a lot more useful than anything this article’s supporters have said.

Dude this guy is sick, Go fuck yourself, you fucking prick, I am a deviant art artist and well guess what some of my friends have posted an article on DA, warning of your fucking ass, Every flash maker and artist should avoid you, And your illegal business practices can actually have you put to prison, and actually thats what we’re going to do you nasty ass fuck, GO TO HELL, Every artist that has fallen under this sleeze’s spell, You need my ASSHOLE EXTERMINATING SERVICES
Id be glad to help you get rid of this nusiance , And you MR Assholeripoffartist are a fucking retard, posting this, well actually I say thanks, I am now ruining your shady business as I write this, Oh and all the games you made are GAY!!!!! They won the award for most shitiest things on Newgrounds 4 years in a row, You dehumanize artists and treat them like slaves, And may I educate you, artists can make money in an economic system, Graphics Design, Advertising Buisnesses, Architectiure, or the Flash industry, Well they are supposed to make money if you actually pay them which your sorry ass doesnt, Your a deciver, a dark strain that spreads through the art world, AND YOU DESERVE TO GET HUNG AND KICKED IN THE PUSSY 100000000000 FUCKING TIMES !!!!

@The Reason You Suck

Industries are not trivial to break in to. The ’starving artist’ stereotype exists for a reason. In many cases, people are appreciative of opportunities, even if they aren’t the highest paid possible. At the same time, this was not worded particularly ‘nicely’

“Valid… but slimy. You should know how much you’re willing to pay when you hire somebody for a project.”

He does. Thats what budgets are for. Budgets are upper limits, not spending targets. How is that slimy?

Any sort of payment ‘up front’ leaves the client open to being screwed by the artist, this can’t only work one way. Most professional relationships when someone is having work done (contractors, etc) are paid on conclusion, with the possible exception of material costs or some kind of down payment.

“fair pay” should not be influenced by the value of the project, only by the value of your time and talent. If your quote is influenced by the size of the project as a whole, and not just the art requirement, it is pure greed.

“Docking pay for imaginary deadlines?”

The statement was that you give a deadline even if /you/ do not have a deadline, that way you know when you /should/ have work done by so you can move on. Not entirely unreasonable, even if docking pay is suspect.

Cheers

Oh, and I forgot to mention:

Always get reimbursed for the materials you use. This isn’t a problem with digital work, but if someone commissions a painting from you, make sure that you get reimbursed for the canvas and paint that you use on top of your hourly payment. If they are keeping the physical product that you had to purchase the materials to create, they should pay for those materials.

@Asshole Exterminating Service

I’m back!!!

I’m going to still try to be nice, so I’m offering to help you, AES, or may I just call you asshole, with your social issues?

I recommend Buf Pufs combined with Clinique clarifying lotion for your persistent acne.
For you bad breath, you’ll probably need to go the dentist so she can pull those rotting molars.
I recommend you give up carbs, especially since you are in a sedentary profession. Walking four times a week will help you with the excess bodyfat and also reduce your B.O.

Most V.D.can be treated nowadays, but you’re probably stuck with the warts.

It does help to understand why you are so angry.

@College Grad
This seems slightly suspect.

First of all, does the client telling you how much they are looking to spend not set them up to spend the maximum? If you walk into a store or call up a contractor or look to buy x, and you tell the salesperson your budget is $10000, do you not think they will do their best to hit $10000, even if there are a whole pile of less expensive options?

It would be unreasonable to ask someone how much something would cost to do and have them respond ‘well, how much can you pay?’. That is exceptionally suspect from the other end.

Hourly, especially with wiggle room, is the other issue here. Clearly, art will take time. But it is an extremely nebulous amount of time, very much dependent on the skills and methodology of the artist. Charging hourly implies that if you can produce a work of quality in two hours, it is worth less than if it took you eight hours to produce the same work. This is not the case, as your experience and skill makes up the difference.

You can estimate /for yourself/ how long it will take, and that should factor into it, but asking the client to pay you per hour is excessively suspect, and really leaves your client open to significant abuse.

Not to mention, if you are paid by the hour, it is in your best interest to take longer to complete the same task, whereas if you are paid for the job it is in your best interest to complete the task efficiently.

Discuss

Thank you for the article, actually. I plan on lots of xposting

Being one of those DA’s and being in school, the problem in our situation is we don’t know how much to charge for our art. Some of us undercut the market not because we want to, but because we don’t know what our art is worth. How can we even quantify that? I’ve even talked to professionals that, back in my situation, were doing the same thing. And I’ve had those business classes…they can’t go over everything.

It’s good to get this point of view out to the people that don’t know, because a lot of them aren’t trying purposefully to undercut the market, they just flat out don’t know what to do yet. It’s not like there’s a standardized outline on how to charge for what kind of art.

There’s also a big different in professional vs. amateur in the sheer fact that professionals can charge more because it’s companies that are paying for them. That naturally raises the market. When it’s someone who’s just starting up that doesn’t have a lot, sure he’s not going to be able to pay someone what they’re worth on a corporate level.

I dunno, thoughts on this?

@admin
Hey bitch, you are a sleeze, Go fuck yourself, what you doing is ILLEGAL, I am an artist and I say you are a disgrace of a… wait you arent a person, your a piece of shit!!!, This article has been posted on DA and Newgrounds warning of your ass, Go to hell,, Making money off them, not paying them, Your games are GAY like you.
Theyd be great games if you had no involvement in them, Those poor people you decieved, *I and every artist are flicking you off right now*

@Brinley

Or you could just charge the price that covers your bases?

@Asshole Exterminating Service

@Asshole Exterminating Service

An artist, huh? Well, I didn’t figure you for a writer with that limited vocabulary.

No one will change Kathryn’s and Yem’s minds. They are supporters of the methods above and pointing out that a person can operate a business and maintain human decency, ethics and morals will fall upon deaf ears. Were they more reasonable people, they’d be worth debating, but juvenile insulting retorts indicate otherwise. Pity them. Laugh at them.

Then ignore them.

@JPatton

Dear JPatton,

I think this is going to have to come from the top. Isn’t there any kind of overseeing art agency, similar to what literary agents have?

I know there are industry standard prices for book editors – some are posted, some you can discover with a phone call. Why is it so difficult for artists to get financial information on their industry?

It’s a terrible quandry you have, and one that makes beginning artists have to work blindly.

@Anon-a-moose
Actually, I am fairly sure both of us feel that you can run a successful business while being a decent human being.

All we seem to be asking for is people to articulate their complaints, which they aren’t doing. Constructive discussion, especially with professionals in the ‘art world’, really is the preferred end case, ad hominem attacks really aren’t preferable.

*cough*

@Anon-a-moose

Oh you have to admit Moose,

Some people don’t speak grown-up talk. They only understand being spoken to like juvenile delinquents. I mean, where was this little darling all day when people were discussing this rationally? Hiding under his bed.

And look at you. You haven’t comprehended a thing that’s been written unless it was written in the language of high school locker rooms.

And of course, since I don’t agree with you, I’m unreasonable. By any chance, are you a Sarah Palin supporter?

Duh, of course you can operate a business and be moral. All I’m asking is where is the immorality in paying peoplle what they ask for?

This question has not been answered, rather evaded. Because there is no immorality in it.

Now go ahead, somebody start typing all their little cuss words because you are so vewy, vewy angwy.

Hey jackass, I hope you know that you have most of DeviantArt pissed at your “advice.” Good luck finding ANY artists now. Hope you get what you deserve.

While I’m here, I’m a graphic designer looking for work, but make no mistake, I’m no fool when it comes to payment and will not be treated as such. You get what you pay for.

http://alexmsmith.daportfolio.com/

Thanks for the advertising opportunity.

@Anon-a-moose

P.S. Moose,

How slow you were to chastise AES for his vile tirade, but how quick you were to comment on my rather tame in comparison response.

You are certainly the moral compass this world needs.

Congratulations. I feel a whole lot better.

No, not really.

@Pissed Artist

Yes, he also pays for what he gets.

And you have a problem with that?

@Pissed Artist

Heads up, Pissed,

Since this site is mostly being frequented by artists, you probably won’t get too many hits.

See, a business course would really help you out.

@Pissed Artist
Hilariously, posts like this really don’t make you look particularly professional. Knee-jerk reactions combined with your ‘professional’ web presence is not generally recommended.

Instead of insulting someone on the internet, you could have picked up a piece of work, made some money, and showcased your talent in a positive way.

Congratulations on making a positive business decision.